Curse

Winterclaw · Mar 15, 2010, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Okay, for those who don't know three things:

1. W/Mos are generally considered a joke
2. A typical warriors skill bar is as follows: elite attack, 3 attacks, IAS, res, 2 utilities.
3. Generally speaking SoA belongs on your monk's bar (I've added this because SoA, generally speaking, does belong on one of your monks' bars).

So lately I've been playing around with GW again and I was trying to find ways to get W/Mo characters to be a little less joke like. Since all warrior weapons have an AoE option (often with S/Y) I was experimenting with putting SoA on the warrior's bar as well as one of the monks as a redundancy option. I mean if you are running an aoe warrior, he should be getting as much agro as possible.

My reasoning is that you only need 6 points in protection to get it to last 5 seconds (with a monk you can keep it up) and if you run into cases where a redundancy would help things out (IE enchant stripping, your monk sucks, your monk is lagging bad, etc) then sometimes running a build with this skill might be prudent. IE you use SY to help keep the mobs on you then you use SoA when the monk's version runs out. Thus with it on you and one of your monks, you can keep it up all the time.

Note this thread isn't to encourage people to go /mo, I was just trying to see if I could find a situation where using one /mo skill would be acceptable even if it isn't ideal. Does it make a warrior a little more tanklike? Yes and that is a con, but with skills such as SoH, Splinter weapon, and OoP, you can supplement that damage with another character (hero) or two.

Fate Crusher · Mar 15, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

I don't see the point in this post.

Bringing a back-up skills to help out monks in desperate times is completely understandable, but surely you can just spec a minion master hero to bring prots or any other party member. SY! already adds +100 armour to the party. The monk/s only have to worry about mostly protting only 1 party member (you).

But yes, it would seem logical if you wanted to aid your healer, especially if you're in an area with a lower party number, for example vanquishing Ascalonian areas.

Xx Confuto Xx · Mar 15, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

If your monk already has it, you might as well take shielding hands instead. You can alternate between the two to have one on you at all times easy enough while easily avoiding overlapping your monks SoA, and wouldn't have to cast quite as often/use as much energy as if you had SoA.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 15, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

2. A typical warriors skill bar is as follows: elite attack, 3 attacks, IAS, res, 2 utilities.

No. Different builds = different setup, and some people don't prefer to bring a res.

Quote:

So lately I've been playing around with GW again and I was trying to find ways to get W/Mo characters to be a little less joke like. Since all warrior weapons have an AoE option (often with S/Y) I was experimenting with putting SoA on the warrior's bar as well as one of the monks as a redundancy option. I mean if you are running an aoe warrior, he should be getting as much agro as possible.

AoE on a warrior has little to do with aggro. Aggro isn't acquired in GW like is is in, say, WoW. There's a reason anything with a cast time sucks on a warrior, and that's because it seriously hinders you from doing the job you -should- be doing.

Quote:

My reasoning is that you only need 6 points in protection to get it to last 5 seconds (with a monk you can keep it up) and if you run into cases where a redundancy would help things out (IE enchant stripping, your monk sucks, your monk is lagging bad, etc) then sometimes running a build with this skill might be prudent. IE you use SY to help keep the mobs on you then you use SoA when the monk's version runs out. Thus with it on you and one of your monks, you can keep it up all the time.

You don't use SY! to keep the mobs on you, you use SY! to make your team practically invincible. Mob AI is stupid, and especially using imbagon you can see that just because you suddenly give everyone on your team EXCEPT you +100 armor, they will STILL continue to attack those team members from quite some time, even though you are logically the weakest link.
Warriors don't run SY! so they can maintain aggro, they run it because it makes everyone else a tank, and so it takes pressure off the monk. Protecting yourself from there is best left to the monk, and if they can't protect you with Prot Spirit/ Spirit Bonk / SoA, then something is wrong.

Quote:

I was just trying to see if I could find a situation where using one /mo skill would be acceptable even if it isn't ideal.

Strength of Honor is the only skill I can logically see filling that role.

At any rate, GW is not a tank and spank game, and it's never been. Yes, people still insist on playing that way, and that's why everyone else will laugh at Wammos

cognophile · Mar 15, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

At any rate, GW is not a tank and spank game, and it's never been. Yes, people still insist on playing that way, and that's why everyone else will laugh at Wammos

True that GW is not tank and spank like WoW, but it would be inaccurate to say tanking is totally ineffective in all cases. Perhaps the design intent is to encourage balanced groups, but the reality is that many farming builds have been and are essentially based on some type of tanking.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 15, 2010, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cognophile

True that GW is not tank and spank like WoW, but it would be inaccurate to say tanking is totally ineffective in all cases. Perhaps the design intent is to encourage balanced groups, but the reality is that many farming builds have been and are essentially based on some type of tanking.

Yeah, I can agree with that

. It just so happens that the quickest and most effective way of beating some elite areas is tank and spank related, so people are going to go it no matter what you try and do differently.

Hopefully the AI in GW2 will be rampped up to prevent it. I'd actually like enemies to "recognize" people outside their aggro range, but not necessarily directly aggro them unless they are aiding someone that they are engaged in.

Winterclaw · Mar 15, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel

You don't use SY! to keep the mobs on you, you use SY! to make your team practically invincible.

It does help though...

Quote:

and if they can't protect you with Prot Spirit/ Spirit Bonk / SoA, then something is wrong.

Welcome to pugging.

Quote:

At any rate, GW is not a tank and spank game, and it's never been.

Let's see there was the old DTSC, 600/Smite, and probably a few others.

I don't disagree with the lack of use for warriors going /mo unless you are bored with the usual builds and frankly I was figuring at best this idea could be of use at one of those times you are bored. Cause let's face it, people get tired of playing the exact 3-4 same builds all the time.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 16, 2010, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Let's see there was the old DTSC, 600/Smite, and probably a few others.

GW was not designed with Tank and Spank in mind. I never said it didn't exist, I just said GW is not a tank and spank game, which it is not. As far as I know this is pretty much a fact. The player base just simply found gaps in the way things are programmed in GW (cornerblocking), which leads to a different variation of tank and spank. If corner blocking didn't exist and AI a bit smarter, tank and spank wouldn't exist in GW.

JDRyder · Mar 16, 2010, 01:18 AM // 01:18

I don't like it, imo its better for the monks to just be better. However there is a not so well known way of playing W/MO without it being a joke in both Pve and PvP.

1st time I saw it was back in a older GvG. Big Mchugelarge was a hammer war running a basic dev hammer build, (dev hammer, crushing blow, hammer bash, Mokele smash, Bulls strike, Flail, Enraging charge, rez sig) The skill he was using as a W/mo was Purge signet.

Imo it was a good idea, and I've used it in RA quite a bit to help monks as well in AB, FA ect to own SS necros. Its also decent in Pve depending on the area, and I don't think monks (or at least one of them) should need to bring removals if the war has this

Winterclaw · Mar 16, 2010, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Purge signet is an interesting choice. It helps where a warrior is weak but I'd need to see it in hex and condition stacking areas. One other skill I use when I'm bored is vigorous spirit... you can precast it and it really doesn't do quite enough to justify being on a monk's bar.

Quote:

I don't like it, imo its better for the monks to just be better.

That would be best however isn't always possible.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 16, 2010, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Purge signet is an interesting choice. It helps where a warrior is weak but I'd need to see it in hex and condition stacking areas. One other skill I use when I'm bored is vigorous spirit... you can precast it and it really doesn't do quite enough to justify being on a monk's bar.

That would be best however isn't always possible.

Unless your PUGGING that's really not a problem, and if your PUGGING normal PvE then... well... either you're doing it wrong, or challenging yourself lol

Personally though, I'd much rather knock some sense into stupid monks than to handicap myself and have said monk never learn how to monk properly.

On the flip side of everything, the monk line is full of spells and enchants. that means cast times, most of the prots save Prot Spirit are short duration, therefor need to be applied more often....

...the trouble with W/Mo line of thinking is not that you're bringing defense, it's that you're bringing the wrong kind of defense. You'd be MUCH better of going W/D and speccing a few points into Earth Prayers. Depending on your build, Conviction works wonders, as well as Armor of Sanctity, but you shouldn't logically need more than that. Short to no cast time and longer duration means more time for you doing your job.

but SoA? when calculating the fact that it'd last maybe 5 seconds on a 10 second recharge and 1 second + .75 aftercast, you're a warrior which typically means melee weapon and running around to get to enemies... You'd typically end up running around, casting SoA on yourself, and hitting an enemy maybe once or twice.

And that's bad.

Winterclaw · Mar 16, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

but SoA? when calculating the fact that it'd last maybe 5 seconds on a 10 second recharge and 1 second

poop. I keep thinking SoA has a 1/4th cast time for some reason.

And I personally wouldn't bring conviction because you'd have to give up your IAS to use it. That would be like the 2 seconds you aren't spending attacking because you cast SoA. Which goes back to why I like VS, it can be precast, it lasts kinda long, and it doesn't belong on a monks bar.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 16, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

poop. I keep thinking SoA has a 1/4th cast time for some reason.

And I personally wouldn't bring conviction because you'd have to give up your IAS to use it. That would be like the 2 seconds you aren't spending attacking because you cast SoA. Which goes back to why I like VS, it can be precast, it lasts kinda long, and it doesn't belong on a monks bar.

VS is.. ok, I suppose. I'd much rather slap Blood Bond on a Necro than bother with it.

The trouble with VS is that it's healing. Warriors are better with prot like effects than self healing skills, because even the dumbest of monks know how to red-bar-up at least half decently.

There are some defensive PvE skills that are overlooked too, like Ebon Escape, Great Dwarf Armor, Mental Block, ect. Though Ebon Escape might be bad unless you have other melee players on your team lol

JDRyder · Mar 16, 2010, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Purge signet is an interesting choice. It helps where a warrior is weak but I'd need to see it in hex and condition stacking areas. One other skill I use when I'm bored is vigorous spirit... you can precast it and it really doesn't do quite enough to justify being on a monk's bar.

Yea, tbh I mainly use purge sig for PvP. Other good choices are mending touch, rebirth, renew life (Hey I like the idea when you have 8 in healing) judges insight (when in undead areas)

Others then that I don't think there are any monk skills worth using as a war.

Quote:

That would be best however isn't always possible.

Oh its quite possible, SoA is a easy skill to learn to use.

Winterclaw · Mar 16, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Yes VS is healing, but it's more of a top-off skill or damage mitigation (if you are attacking) than normal red bars go up healing. Generally a monk shouldn't waste energy on someone who is mostly healthy if there's someone else who needs his attention. So if you are mostly healthy and you don't take anymore damage, the monk can forget about you with this... also unlike LC or HS you don't have to stop attacking to heal, you can keep attacking.

EFGJack · Mar 17, 2010, 10:33 AM // 10:33

To OP: If you play with heroes do not waste a skillslot in something your heroes can bring. With little micro-management you can chain SoA on yourself Indefinitely.

Consider using variants of this specific hero setup, It includes all the buffs you need & epic AOE:

I've cleared every dungeon on HM with variants of this build.

(And yes I am aware that using JI with Mark of Pain is counter-productive, but MoP still triggers from HB)

Neo Atomisk · Mar 17, 2010, 03:23 PM // 15:23

EFGJack, can you post the attribute splits for those builds? I might give them a whirl.

EFGJack · Mar 17, 2010, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

EFGJack, can you post the attribute splits for those builds? I might give them a whirl.

Hero #1 (Tahlkora)
Smiting 11+1+1
Channeling 11
Divine Favor 7+1
Prot prayers 5+1

Hero #2 (Dunkoro)
Smiting 12+1+1
Protection 9+1
Divine Favor 9+1

Hero #3 (Olias)

Olias is random. He's the one that changes the most depending on the area. in Slavers he's packing PoD/Chilblains & AOE hex (Blood bond for instance) to protect MoP.

(Standard cornerblocking rules apply. make them ball up and they die before they realise they're supposed to flee from the AE, it's pretty lullzy)

I can post the Slavers' variants if you're interested.